I just had to post this because it’s too interesting to pass up. So Miss California makes a statement about believing marriage is between a man and a woman, I blog about it, and suddenly traffic to my blog jumps by the hundreds. And guess what people are searching for? You got it, variations of “Miss California + Mormon” and “Is Carrie Prejean Mormon?”
Why is it that we’re still stuck here, folks? Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not the only ones who donated to Proposition 8. And Mormons are not the only ones who worked to ensure the passage of Proposition 8. In fact, Mormons were the last faith-based group invited to join the Protect Marriage coalition! Granted, I take pride in defending marriage, but that doesn’t mean I was the only one doing it and maybe, just maybe, there are some other folks out there who would like their fair share of intimidation, intolerance, vandalism, and vulgarity. Just a thought . . . .
So here is some of what I found in my StatCounter shortly after posting about Carrie.
Num Perc. Search Term
44 15.60% carrie prejean mormon
20 7.09% Miss California Mormon
17 6.03% carrie prejean lds
10 3.55% is carrie prejean mormon
7 2.48% IS cARRIE pREJEAN A mORMON
6 2.13% Carrie Prejean mormon ?
2 1.09% +"Miss California" +mormon
2 1.09% Is Miss California Mormon?
2 1.09% is carrie prejean mormon?
2 1.09% miss california lds
1 0.54% is miss california mormon
1 0.54% carrie prejean+lds
1 0.54% Carrie Prejean, mormon
1 0.54% miss california 2009 mormon
1 0.54% carrie prejean's mormon?
1 0.54% Miss California 2009 LDS
1 0.54% Miss California usa mormon
1 0.54% Prejean miss california lds
1 0.54% carrie prejean miss california +religion +mormon
1 0.54% Carrie Prejean mormon or not
1 0.54% Carrie Prejean mormon?
1 0.54% is miss california a mormon
1 0.54% carrie+prejean+lds
1 0.54% carrie prejean's mormon
1 0.54% Carrie Prejean is she mormon
1 0.54% Carrie Prejean is a Mormon
1 0.54% is miss california a mormon?
1 0.54% miss california lds?
1 0.54% "Carrie Prejean" mormon
Obviously, there are other searches not associated with the infamous Miss California that are bringing hits to my blog, but I chose to omit them here in order to emphasize this mindboggling occurrence of massive, misdirected assumption. This just blows my mind!
Does anyone else see the frightening ramifications of such convoluted reasoning (or lack thereof)? Let me break it down for you. The tentative idea, conscious or unconscious, is this: “If you believe marriage is between a man and a woman, you must either be LDS or have some connection to the LDS Church.”
Huh.
Eh?
Whether that idea is generating from a homosexual marriage advocate hell-bent on finding fault or from a member of the LDS Church seeking for validation by association, the assumption is equally misdirected.
What was that about members of the LDS Church making up a whopping 2% of the entire population of California? Boy, if I was Catholic, or Evangelical, or even “just” a mere concerned citizen wielding sound social sciences research in defense of 1man/1woman marriage, I’d be pretty darned upset that my beliefs were being categorically ignored as the Mormons receive all the vitriolic glory! :0)
~Pearl
P.S. I have no idea if Carrie Prejean is Mormon or not. And frankly, it doesn’t concern me. What I do find refreshing, is her willingness to candidly state her belief in marriage between one man and one woman on international television and in response to a very cynical gay marriage advocate.
UPDATE: Since beginning this blog a couple of hours ago (sorry peeps, gotta take time to put the kiddos down for naps), my blog hits have jumped another several hundred and numbers are climbing for all of the searches above. *Sigh*
Posts
38 comments:
Just a thought....I wondered if some of those searches could have been done by Mormons who wondered, after her statement, if she was a member.
I did read today on a blog that Troy Dunn, from the television show, "The Locator" is a Mormon Bishop. I haven't been able to find information to confirm that, but he sure seems to fit the description. :)
Yes, that's absolutely a possibility, Delirious, but I'm Mormon and I don't really care what denomination she is. I'm just thrilled that she was willing to stand up for marriage! :0) It's obvious by the nature of my post, but I honestly believe these searches are from people who are thinking, "Wow, she defended marriage so openly; she must be Mormon and I'm gonna find out for sure." Based on the reaction from gay activists following the Nov. 4th vote, I don't think my theory is too far-fetched.
She had the right to express her point of view and feelings, but as usual, the Glamour media and all the gay community that surrounds it want to force the society to accept a "contra natura" fact.
I'm pretty sure that Troy Dunn is a Mormon. When we would go on long trips when I was a child we would listen to his "Life is Like a Football Game" and "Life is Like a Roller Coaster", and if he is not a member then he sure acts like one!
I could not have expressed this opinion any better. Way to go!
tDMg
The entire premise of this post uses faulty logic. Just because somebody searches to see if Miss California is a Mormon does not mean that they believe Mormons are the only ones who support traditional marriage. Rather, people are interested to find what faith she belongs to. Plain and simple. If she is a fellow Mormon, it is something to be proud of. If she is of another faith, good for her and kudos to her parents and church who raised a principled young lady.
You should check out the campaign disclosure for Prop 8, the majority of the money that came into the "YES" camp was either LDS or Catholic. I would lump the two together, however where I live in CA, there are more Mormans than Catholics. Utah (and several members of the LDS church) also gave loads of money to the Yes on 8 campaign.
I searched under "Carrie Prejean mormon" and "Carrie Prejean lds" because I felt a sense of pride in Carrie's response to Perez's question. I'm proud of her no matter what her religious affiliation is, but I would have felt a closer sense of kinship had I discovered she is LDS (like one would feel if one discovered a local hero is actually a relative). My searches had nothing to do with LDS support of Prop 8.
Tom, if people want to know her background, they could search "Carrie Prejean background." If they want to know her beliefs, then they could search "Carrie Prejean beliefs." If they want to know her religion, they could search "Carrie Prejean religion." I can type in "Carrie Prejean Catholic" and my blog is on the first page, but there are ONLY TWO searches that mention Catholicism rather than the broader "religion" or more specific "Mormonism" that have brought people to my blog. Why does everyone assume that if she's religious, she must be Mormon? Or, if they are not assuming that, then why are they trying to discover if her faith is Mormonism rather than discovering what her faith is?
Below is what my StatCounter looks like now. And here is the logic applied to my post: If I want to find out someone's religion, do I search one-by-one, "Carrie Prejean + Mormon," "Carrie Prejean + Catholic," "Carrie Prejean + Evangelical?" No, of course not. That would be tedious and, frankly, stupid. Instead, I would put, "Carrie Prejean + religion" and hopefully then I would be rewarded with a plethora of sites discussing what religion Miss California subscribes to. Below, you will notice that more people are now doing that. However, there are still quite a few people who seem to be unilaterally determined to find out, specifically, if Carrie Prejean is actually Mormon, not what religion she is. Is it possible that the world is already forgetting the rabid response of gay marriage advocates after Proposition 8 passed? The vandalism at the LA Temple? The slander and accusation directed almost singularly at the LDS Church? I haven't. And in remembering that, I find it easy to infer that a large portion of these people determined to discover Carrie Prejean's "Mormon affiliation" are doing so with not-so-pleasant thoughts in mind.
But, of course, that's just my two cents. Thanks for sharing yours, Tom!
*(Another quick thought directed into the general blogosphere . . . . Why must someone who defends marriage automatically be religious? Atheists could defend marriage with the myriad social science research studies supporting and promoting the presence of two opposite-sex parents in the home.)
78 19.80% carrie prejean religion
27 6.85% Carrie Prejean mormon
21 5.33% carrie prejean
17 4.31% miss california mormon
16 4.06% is carrie prejean mormon
12 3.05% what religion is Carrie Prejean
12 3.05% Carrie Prejean lds
8 2.03% is carrie prejean mormon?
8 2.03% carrie prejean's religion
8 2.03% Miss California Carrie Prejean mormon
6 1.52% Carrie Prejean church
5 1.27% is miss california mormon
5 1.27% is carrie prejean a mormon
4 1.02% is carrie prejean lds
4 1.02% Carrie Prejean, mormon
4 1.02% Is Carrie Prejean LDS?
4 1.02% miss california religion
4 1.02% is miss california a mormon
4 1.02% Carrie Prejean lds mormon
3 0.76% Is miss california lds
3 0.76% mormon
3 0.76% miss california lds
3 0.76% Miss California Carrie Prejean
3 0.76% miss california mormon?
2 0.51% is miss california mormon?
2 0.51% Carrie Prejeans religion
2 0.51% is Carrie Prejean miss california a mormon?
2 0.51% "Carrie Prejean" religion
2 0.51% church lose tax exemption
2 0.51% Carrie Prejean's
2 0.51% carrie prejean background family religion
2 0.51% "Carrie Prejean" mormon
2 0.51% miss california usa mormon
2 0.51% what religion is miss california
2 0.51% miss california, mormon
2 0.51% carrie prejean profile
2 0.51% Carrie Prejean +religion
2 0.51% carrie prejean religious background
2 0.51% miss california carrie prejean religion
2 0.51% Carrie Prejean is she a mormon
2 0.51% Carrie Prejean lds?
2 0.51% Carrie Prejean mormon?
2 0.51% in defense of miss california
2 0.51% Carrie Prejean, religion
2 0.51% Miss California Gays LDS
1 0.25% what religion is miss california?
1 0.25% carrie prejean what is their religion
1 0.25% carrie prejean's church
1 0.25% is carrie prejean a member of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints
1 0.25% Miss California is LDS
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean back ground
1 0.25% what religion is carrie prejean miss california
1 0.25% what religion is carrie prejean?
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean + religious background
1 0.25% miss usa california mormon
1 0.25% religion carrie prejean
1 0.25% 2009 miss california mormon?
1 0.25% carrie prejean background
1 0.25% Is Carrie Prejean a mormon?
1 0.25% calif miss america Carrie Prejean
1 0.25% carrie prejean what religion
1 0.25% what religion is Carrie Prejean
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean is what religion
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean - Miss California
1 0.25% is miss california lds?
1 0.25% what is miss californias religion
1 0.25% "miss california" 2009 religion
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean religion mormon
1 0.25% Miss California Carrie religion
1 0.25% "carrie prejean" + mormon
1 0.25% carrie prejean miss california - is she a mormon?
1 0.25% what is Carrie Prejean's faith
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean + lds
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean's home town
1 0.25% miss CA mormon
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean +lds
1 0.25% what is Carrie Prejeans religion
1 0.25% miss california 2009 carrie prejean religion
1 0.25% carrie perjean miss california
1 0.25% what religion is miss california 2009
1 0.25% is miss california usa mormon
1 0.25% donald trump apology to Carrie Prejean
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean, what religion?
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean what religion?
1 0.25% miss california & mormon
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean what church
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean faith
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean's religion?
1 0.25% prejean carrie religion
1 0.25% DREAM GAY
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean AND church
1 0.25% is Carrie Prejean catholic
1 0.25% miss california 2009
1 0.25% WHAT IS CARRIE PREJEAN RELIGION
1 0.25% "Carrie Prejean" what religion
1 0.25% what church does carrie prejean go to
1 0.25% what is carrie prejean's religion
1 0.25% carrie prejean's blog
1 0.25% miss usa mormon
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean blog facebook
1 0.25% "carrie Prejean" and "religion"
1 0.25% prejean california
1 0.25% Catholic Reaction to Miss California
1 0.25% Prejean church
1 0.25% LDS Miss USA
1 0.25% FAITH+OF+CARRIE+PREJEAN
1 0.25% "Miss California" "Carrie Prejean " Facebook
1 0.25% mis california 2009
1 0.25% "carrie prejean" lds
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean pictures free
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean catholic
1 0.25% carrie prejean miss california cnn
1 0.25% religion of Miss California 2009
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean , mormon
1 0.25% is prejean lds
1 0.25% Durex's Mission Statement
1 0.25% find information on Miss California Carrie Prejean
1 0.25% Miss California Carrie Prejean's mormon
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean what religion is
1 0.25% MISS CALIFORNIA USA LDS
1 0.25% miss california religious
1 0.25% carrie perjean and mormon
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean a mormon
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean+mormon
1 0.25% pearl-diving.blogspot.com miss-california-carrie-prejean-mormon
1 0.25% carrie prejean religion?
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean's what religion is she
1 0.25% carrie prejean christ
1 0.25% Carrie Prejean and her church
1 0.25% miss california 2009 church
1 0.25% glorification of homosexuality
1 0.25% defending miss california
1 0.25% carrie prejean background info
1 0.25% HBO big love mormon temple
1 0.25% what religion is Carrie Prejean's
i'm surprised you are so bothered about the number of people that assume she may be LDS. as members of the church we are supposed to stand out (and we do stand out especially in today's world) i'm glad that the hundreds (maybe thousands now) of people searching this are wondering if she is LDS. that says a lot for who we are and its about time they are searching mormon with Carrie Prejean rather than mormon with polygamy.
AMEN, James and Natalie!
I am not ashamed to be LDS, nor am I ashamed of LDS people who stand out for their beliefs. Heck, I stand out for my beliefs. But what concerns me so much is this large-scale "assumption of Mormonism" that inadvertently excludes many of the other religions (and non-religions) that defend marriage just as boldly as we do. We have a lot of brothers and sisters of other faiths (as well as the altogether faithless) who also understand the importance of defending the family, starting with the protection of marriage between one man and one woman. I'd sure hate for them to feel as if their contribution receives a lesser appreciation due to the attention Mormons are receiving.
In addition, I think it's fair to say that he who receives all the glory from one side, also receives all the backlash from the other. So let's spread the "love" around a bit, eh? For safety's sake? :0) (Just teasing here).
@Pictures of Journeys
If it makes you feel better, I will be your personal, Mormon scapegoat. I gave $500 to the Yes on 8 campaign, so I believe I qualify by your standards of monetary measurement.
Pearl, I can only speak for myself. I know that most of the country, indeed our current President does NOT support marriage among homosexuals and would never assume just because somebody has this stance they must be Mormon. However, most Mormons are curious about others that are Mormon. In my mind, I assumed she was not a Mormon as it is unlikely based on the numbers. But I knew the quickest way to find out was a direct search with her name and "Mormon" in the search. It is as simple as that. No crazy ignorant assumptions about Mormons being the only good people, no bias based on slander from Prop 8.
I would be interested to know how many of those hits to your site are from fellow Mormons like me, rather than simply a by-product of the Prop 8 situation? Maybe you're right, but not for my personal case.
Thanks Tom. I'm as curious as you. Maybe I should ask people to drop a comment with their religious affiliation and the search terms that brought them here. :0) Just kidding. Thanks again for stopping by.
P.S. Regarding our president's "position" on homosexual marriage, here is a bit of information that I've managed to scrounge up on the Internet. I'd be curious to know your thoughts, but it is a bit off-subject, so I understand if you would rather not respond. I would suggest that our president's supposed position regarding homosexual marriage is a little less clear-cut than he would have us believe.
OBAMA SAID (and I don't have sources because this was my sister's attempt to defend Obama and she didn't include them.):
"I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been."I FOUND:In a letter he sent last week to the Alice B. Toklas L.G.B.T. Democratic Club, a San Francisco gay rights group, Obama said this: "I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states,"(NYTimes.com)
*My thoughts: That last quote from him doesn't seem to support the quote that he believes "decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been." Oh, and to put the icing on the ambiguity cake, while Obama declares that he opposes Prop 8, it is also certain that, "He remains opposed to same-sex marriage, but supports civil unions and domestic partnerships" (NYTimes.com). He opposes a one man, one woman definition of marriage, but also opposes same-sex marriage? And he opposes Proposition 8 which is the effort a state attempting to decide the matter for itself as he defended in that first quote? Hmm . . . things are looking murky.
IT HAS BEEN NOTED THAT:
Obama also believes we need to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions.
I ASK:
Why do we need to repeal the DOMA in order to "ensure federal legal rights to civil unions?" In California, domestic partnerships afford all the same rights and protections to homosexuals as are granted in marriages, but without redefining the institution of marriage. The DOMA is short and succinct (Wikipedia.org):
1. No state (or other political subdivision within the United States) needs to treat a relationship between persons of the same sex as a marriage, even if the relationship is considered a marriage in another state.
2. The federal government may not treat same-sex relationships as marriages for any purpose, even if concluded or recognized by one of the states.
The only reason to repeal the DOMA is to pave the way for federal recognition of gay marriage, stripping the right to determine marriage status from the hands of the states. If politicians were honest (ha ha) they would admit that federal legal rights for civil unions can be obtained without touching the DOMA. Indeed, one federal circuit judge, the honorable James S. Moody, ruled in favor of the DOMA when lesbians attacked the legislation in a lawsuit (Wilson v. Ake):
"The plaintiffs assert that DOMA is beyond the scope of Congress’ legislative power under the Full Faith and Credit Clause because Congress may only regulate what effect a law may have, it may not dictate that the law has no effect at all.
This Court disagrees with Plaintiff’s interpretation of the Full Faith and Credit Clause. Congress’ actions in adopting DOMA are exactly what the Framers envisioned when they created the Full Faith and Credit Clause. DOMA is an example of Congress exercising its powers under the Full Faith and Credit Clause to determine the effect that “any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State, territory, possession, or tribe respecting a relationship between persons of the same sex that is treated as a marriage” has on the other States. 28 U.S.C. §1738C. Congress’ actions are an appropriate exercise of its power to regulate conflicts between the laws of two different States, in this case, conflicts over the validity of same-sex marriages.
Adopting Plaintiffs’ rigid and literal interpretation of the Full Faith and Credit would create a license for a single State to create national policy."
Sorry folks. I couldn't get the formatting right so that my "I FOUND" would be hard-returned. Argh. Computers can be so frustrating sometimes. Love/hate relationship, right?! ;)
Hello! I just got a note from a friend about your blog today, so I'm responding to answer the posed question about me: yes, I am Latter-Day Saint, i.e. Mormon and currently serving as Bishop for the second time.
(I was going to make up something crazy to post here, but with the ways rumors can circulate the internet...)
Love this blog! What a national conversation you have going on here!
Hugs to everyone,
Troy Dunn
"The Locator"
I actually did search for Carrie Prejean Religion and your post popped up in the #2 position. And so I clicked and followed all the way to the bottom. Some very good comments and an overall nice overview of how web stats reveal how people find a site. So I wasn't looking for your post per se, but I must say that the content pulled it up higher in the rankings and people are naturally attracted to the controversial headline. I think you protest too much.
In regards to this, Miss Prejean violated the rules and sinned against America's #1 god; Pop Culture. She defiled her position as a potential pop queen by swearing allegiance to the one God she recognizes. When you dare stand up for your believes, in contradiction to popular culture, then the true believers understand you must be knocked down a notch. Miss Prejean passed the true test: she was true to herself.
hmmmmm, I simply searched her name and church thinking that the most broad search for the possibility of reading a doctrinal statement. Not interested in stats and assume nothing and will search adjust. Carry on.
Wow Pearl! You've certainly gotten a lot of comments on this one. Your initial assumption that gay activists and anti-Mormons were searching for a connection is probably valid. Apparently, there's no connection or someone would have spread the word all over the blogosphere.
I do agree that I admire Miss California for standing up for what is right.
I think this site is biased because you only publish positive comments. I took the time to write criticizing your article but I bet you don't have the guts publish any opinions that defer to you.
I found your page because I am guilty of a similar search on google: I'm also Mormon...I was curious.
I think it is vastly important that the world makes the connection of what we ACTUALLY believe...let's not take this reality for granted, at least they weren't searching 'mormon + polygamy + Big Love + Temple ceremony'.
If people wonder what her religion is, I think it is important that they ask the question, and research it. There is nothing inherently wrong with the general query. It separates the wheat from the tares to ask the questions.
Psst.....Mormons and Catholics are not the only ones that believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. I'm Baptist--independent, fundamental, Bible-believing (KJV Bible that is)! We believe in one man + one woman = marriage.
@jscottsarrio
I approved your comment already. Did you not realize it was a different post you had initially responded to?
@Amanda
You make good points. Thanks for commenting. I'm chuckling a little right now because of what you said about HBO + Big Love searches. If you'll notice, at the bottom of the keyword analysis I posted here in the comment thread, the second to last search that brought someone to my blog is:
1 0.25% HBO big love mormon temple
:0)
BUT . . . I'd rather people come here than elsewhere to discover more about that topic, so I'll not complain.
"If people wonder what her religion is, I think it is important that they ask the question, and research it. There is nothing inherently wrong with the general query."
Exactly! I agree completely! But my concern this entire time has been that people aren't making a general query. Instead, they are specifically searching to find out if she is Mormon. I guess perhaps it's the crusty, old curmudgeon in me (thanks Euripides), but I find that to be just a little presumptuous. I have the good fortune to blog with several people who are Catholic and non-Mormon Christian. I admire them so much and am deeply grateful for their contribution to the fight to protect marriage. I have also been at this for a while, and am bold enough to suggest that I've become fairly well-acquainted with the mentality of the gay activist. I really don't think that my initial theory about the nature of these singular searches is entirely off-the-mark. It has become increasingly apparent that homosexual marriage advocates, when faced with an opposing opinion, have a propensity to go out of their way to find or create fault where none exists.
How sad that in their mind being a Mormon is a fault. They have no idea the amount of love members of the LDS Church have for them.
@jeanicecaverly
Thank you, thank you, thank you for proving my point so beautifully! And equal thanks and gratitude for your belief in marriage between a man and a woman. I appreciate you.
I definitely know Carrie and can definitely tell you that she is NOT Mormon, she is Christian.
Thanks for commenting Noah Friend. We appreciate Carrie no matter her religious leanings. Incidentally, are you aware that Mormons are Christians, too? Hence the official name of our Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. :0) Have a blessed day, Noah Friend!
Just look at Twitter. Type in the word Mormon, and a whole host of people asking, "Is Miss California Mormon"-like updates come up. Some one responded to one of them with this link, so that's how I was directed here. Thank you for this blog, by the way. Excellent stuff.
You know, Carrie Prejean said nothing about religion in her impromptu answer.
Since then, in interviews, she has not shied away from referring to God and her respect for differences.
But she has not hinted one iota at a sectarian view of marriage as the union of husband and wife. At least, I haven't seen her do so in any of the interviews watched.
In other words, what she answered does NOT depend on a religious doctrine alone.
I hope she will reassert the common sense view of marriage -- and I welcome her unabashed confession of religious beliefs as strenghtening her convictions.
That's the combination that made American liberty possible and vibrant in the first place.
Miss Prejean is currently a student at San Diego Christian College, which is associated with Shadow Mountain Community Church at whose International Ministry Center Miss Prejean has volunteered. While virtually any faith would be proud to count Miss Prejean a member, it appears she is currently affiliated Southern Baptist.
Here's the wrinkle: Miss Prejean's educational background would have been part of her application for the Miss USA pageant, to which all judges would have been given access. Mr. Hilton likely knew Miss Prejean's Christian faith when he targeted his highly divisive question at her. Donald Trump, the pageant owner, attributes the question to her "bad luck." I'm not so sure.
In response to Pearl, I was almost positive you were going to tell me that Mormon's are Christian too, hah, I should have clarified. I understand where you're coming from. Anyway, the first time I met her was at a foursquare Christian church when we were both around the 6th grade, and throughout high school, she attended another local Christian church, but not a LDS church. Although we had many good friends who were Mormon in high school, neither she nor I are Mormons. As far as the Southern Baptist claim, I'd have to ask her that. As far as I know, she loves Jesus and has a personal relationship with him. That's whats important. God bless!
Nice post Pearl.
This Catholic is finding greater and greater respect for the Mormon faith.
The amount of anti-Mormon bigotry is more grotesque than I ever imagined before the Prop 8 debate.
God Bless all those Mormons and I hope they keep their chins up.
They deserve to feel proud & righteous.
The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, and other advanced countries with high educational standards, universal health care systems that work well, life spans that routinely go beyond 90 years of age--these are the countries that have long recognized some form of gay civil unions, and now gay-marriage. They view it as a basic human right, and they are able to separate the religious from the secular--something which the U.S. was able to do until George W. Bush became President.
It seems odd in some ways that Mormons can't do the same, for they were a much-despised religious group for their practice of polygamy, which they now seem to renounce. But they were able to gain, in spite of this circumstance, full constitutional rights under our system of laws, which have made clear the separation of church and state.
Arguments are often made that religion does better when it is not state-sponsored. And so, too should the Mormons withdraw from the Prop.8 debate--because it IS an interference by a church body in the laws of the land. It IS NOT the purview of the Mormons or Catholics or Baptists or Assemblies of God or any other religious group to deny basic human rights to homosexuals, who are also the children of God.
Curtiss,
If that same group of "advanced countries with high educational standards [etc.]" decided to legalize marriage between an adult and a child, would you encourage the United States to jump on the bandwagon simply because other "smart" countries are doing it? We don't do things just because other people are doing it. Number one lesson you learn as a parent is to put your foot down when it matters and ignore those indignant cries of "It's not fair!" and "Jessy's mom lets her do it and she's a high-powered attorney who drinks raw eggs every morning!"
Separation of Church and State is a myth. None of those words actually exist in either the Constitution or the First Amendment.
"The First Amendment religion clauses have been morphed into the phrase 'a wall of separation between Church and State' - eight words taken out of context from an incidental letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 . . . . Ironically, Jefferson intended for his letter to the Danbury Baptists to reassure them that the new federal government would not endanger the free expression of their religion. This is widely known. But what is not well known is that Jefferson did not actually coin the phrase 'separation of church and state.' Rather, he borrowed the metaphor from the sermon, 'The Garden and the Wilderness,' which was very familiar to Baptists of the time. As Jim Henderson, senior counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice, explains it:
"That sermon, rendered by Roger Williams (the founder of the Rhode Island Plantation colony, and a Baptist), depicted the church as a garden, the world as a wilderness, and the wall as a device of the Creator's invention that protected the garden from being overrun by the wilderness. Williams explained that, from time to time, for the purpose of disciplining sin in the church, 'it hath pleased' the Almighty to break down the wall.
Thomas Jefferson, ever the politician, knew when he communicated with the Baptists that 'The Garden and The Wilderness' was a well known and widely read nearly two generations later. He appealed to them in the terms of their own great man's idiom."
There you have it. The wall of separation was meant to protect 'the garden' of the church from being overrun by 'the wilderness' of government. No wonder Chief Justice Rehnquist has said, "The metaphor of a 'wall of separation' is bad history and worse law. It has made a positive chaos out of court rulings. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned." In other words. it's a lie."
(The Marketing of Evil, p. 55-56)
Indeed, when our Constitution was created, the nation was overwhelmingly Christian and . . .
- ". . . no fewer than six of the thirteen original states had official, state-supported churches - 'establishments of religion'! I'll bet you didn't know that. In fact, these states - Connecticut, Georgia, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and South Carolina - refused to ratify the new national Constitution unless it included a prohibition of federal meddling with their existing state 'establishments of religion.'"
- "In 1777, with the Revolutionary War threatening the flow of Bibles from England, Congress approved the purchase of twenty thousand Bibles from Holland to give to the states."
- "Other states required those seeking elected office to be Christians."
- "The Continental Congress routinely designated days of fasting and prayer and other religious observances, appointed government-funded chaplains, and appropriated money to pay for Christian missionaries to convert the Indians."
(The Marketing of Evil, p.41)
Marriage is not a civil right, it is an institutional privilege, granted to all men and women equally so long as each individual agrees to abide by its parameters. Traditional marriage creates the ultimate equality as no gender is marginalized. Government regulates marriage for the benefit of society; to ensure the best possible emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual outcome for the potential posterity of the marital union.
Our nation's "model of democracy" has been clearly misunderstood when judges take it upon themselves to legislate from the bench, making decisions based on personal beliefs that children don't actually need a mother and a father, dismissing years and years of research to the contrary. Democracy is what happened in California, allowing the people to vote on a matter that affects us all and especially affects our children. No other state that has legalized homosexual "marriage" has put the issue to a vote by the people. California got it right.
Pearl:
Actually I have heard all those arguments. They've become a familiar and well-known package.
What i can say to you is that when I was growing up in a small town in Minnesota, we had issues revolving around what could and could not be done in the public school in religious matters.
One church in town, which was connected to the Hauge Synod (a pietistic Lutheran sect) tried to make their views everybody's views. The other three churches, which were also Lutheran, found they had to resist these people at every turn because they were always trying to insert their beliefs and practices into the public school.
Dances, proms, and anything that vaguely smacked of something they didn't like, they objected to and did their best to remove.
School prayers were not allowed in the public school because the other Lutheran churches would not allow that to happen. It was felt that there needed to be a SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!!!!! This was back in the 1940s and 1950s. Most people were very comfortable with that notion, and still are--to my knowledge. And they clearly knew what that meant, that religion had no right to insert itself into the public school.
WE KNEW THEN WHAT SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEANT THEN,
AND WE STILL KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TODAY!
My own church was part of the Swedish Augustana Synod. It never forced religion down my throat, and didn't feel it had to make its beliefs everybody else's beliefs.
The Mormon church has of course endured enormous hardship throughout its history, and one of the things it was forced to give up was polygamy in order to keep Utah in the Union as Morman. It strikes me that opposition to Prop 8 has now become a vehicle for the Mormon Church to present itself as a truly mainstream American institution--just like, let's say, the Episcopal Church.
That's not a good reason for doing what you're doing.
It's a bullying tactic, and unworthy of a truly American institution.
Curtiss, Mormons didn't "give up polygamy in order to keep Utah in the Union." That assertion makes me chuckle. Mormons discontinued polygamy when laws prohibiting the practice were put into place. The Lord commanded the Saints to be law-abiding citizens.* It's really that simple. And there is no ulterior motive for members of the Church to support Prop 8. We simply understand the divine nature of traditional marriage and it's secular importance to the health and continuation of society. Knowing what we know to be true, we act according to that belief. We get involved. We speak up. You say bully; I say opine.
I also find it amusing that you first assign me a contrived reason for believing as I do (some "mainstream American institution" goal) and then conveniently call that reason inadequate ("that's not a good reason for doing what you're doing"). Maybe you ought to go back to the drawing board and come up with another reason then, until you find a one for my beliefs that satisfies you, though I don't think you will be able to since at the very heart of this gulf between us is a very different OPINION on the nature of marriage, not my blogging modus operandi.
(*Please keep in mind that I do not speak for the LDS Church. These views are based on my own, personal understanding of LDS history.)
Thank you for airing my views.
curt
Hi Pearl. I love your blog! And I found it because of the Carrie Prejean controversy. Is she a Mormon? No. I think what people are looking for is whether there was a conspiracy over the passage of Prop 8 including Miss CA herself. Because if it hadn't been for some nefarious power, how could California (the state, not the beauty contestant) pass "hate laws?" Of course, most of us here know the reality- and the prominence of many groups such as Bible believing African-Americans who voted in Obama and voted out so-called gay marriage. Anyhow, whereever and whyever you get the traffic, unless it's crashing your servers, it's good for you. Plenty of people are looking for some voices of reason in this media maelstrom. I'm glad to be here and to find out about DNA. Just may start a blog of my own too. Thanks for your good work.
Lukas, we'd be pleased to have you!
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